People have NO idea how much the average Indian is pissed at the US for backing or helping Pakistan. Pakistan IS the problem. They KNOWINGLY SHELTERED Bin Laden for years.
Yeah, we should have done them for that, say with a nuke dropped on him instead of a Seal Team. But the administration at the time was muslim, so what can you do?
One tidbit I remember from the 1965 fracas was that Chuck Yeager was one of the military advisors sent to Pakistan by the US, and one of his tasks was helping the Pakis rewire the hardpoints on Chinese-built MiG-19s to fire AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles. On the plus side, they didn't have to physically modify the hardpoints as the K-13 Vympel missiles that normally hung there were reverse-engineered Sidewinders. Seriously, younger generations will never know just how flipping WEIRD the Cold War was.
Yeager's Beechcraft was destroyed by the Indians. After he had been raving about the Paks being in New Delhi inside of a month, I found that rather amusing.
[makes a bowl of popcorn, sits down, waits for the hueing and the crying and the hemming and the hawing and the wailing and the gnashing of teeth and rending of clothes]
In 1975 our Frigate deployed to the Indian Ocean and the east coast of Africa. Karachi, Pakistan was a port call along the way. Sailors are always eager to go ashore. It was a 4 day visit. I maxed out after 5 hours. Dusty, dry, windy, dirty, too many aggressive blue bottle flies, thousands of years of compacted and composted trash on the streets. You kind of wanted to throw away your civilian shoes after walking around town. I didn't though because they were Cordovan Wingtips. Had them resoled in Singapore. Still have that pair of shoes. Here is the deal. Most of the Consulate staff came aboard our ship for R&R. They'd arrive mid-morning with family and kids and stay until 2200. They ate lunch and dinner on the messdeck. Raved about how good that Navy/American chow was. We did have decent chow, but it wasn't cordon bleu. They'd watch the 2000 movie on the messdeck. Play cards or board games with the sailors. Shoot the breeze. Those people were starved for a slice of America and our Frigate was heaven to them. They bought lots of candies, snacks, toiletries, and souvenirs from our small ship's store. They begged for toilet paper...that G.I. issue stuff we sailors hated. They were ever so grateful for our hospitality, the chow, the chance to socialize, the toilet paper. We were glad to have them as guests and enjoyed their company. What else were we going to do? Go ashore in Karachi? Colon, Panama (yes, that is the way they spell it) was better liberty. So was Papua-New Guinea. Concerning Pakistan? Been there, done that, not going back.
Yep. Read Steve Coll’s “Ghost Wars” and “Directorate S”. They give the quintessential description of how ISI has played us, the Afghans, and nearly everyone else in the region for fools.
This is just more of the fine work from the same intelligence 'brains' who brought us WW1, who thought that they were all Lawrence of Arabia and could 'control' the middle east, and that all the damned 'color revolutions' of the past few decades were GREAT ideas....
To be fair, the Brit brains had very little to do with WWI- that was the Brains in Viennia, Berlin, and St. Petersburg who thought a quick & victorious war would be Just the Thing to Take Care of Those Blasted Serbs/Russians/Austrians.
It just happened that the Von Schlieffen plan involved a quick little Tour de France via Belgum, roping in two nations who really didn't want to play in that game.
However, the Brits did majorly bungle the post-colonial situation- first holding on too hard for too long, then dumping everyone into a Ready or Not independence. They were also super sloppy on drawing borders, which didn't and isn't helping.
The Brains in Vienna, Berlin, and St. Petersburg are of a set with the ones in England.
Their thought patterns, attitudes, and self proclaimed brilliance was not much more separate then, then they are now. They had been working on getting that way for the previous half century or more.
All those brilliant little planning geniuses in their ministries who knew just how everything everywhere should be done.
How many millions has that myth of human omnipotence killed in the past couple of centuries? It could be in diplomacy, economics, strategy- people are too much complicated for a small group to command and manage. Inevitably, things get way out of hand in ways unforeseen and uncontrollable.
If you want to get technical, it's more about Kaiser Bill's diplomatic brilliance- not only getting traditional enemies Russia, France, and Britian to become allies, but also in turning their traditional allies Russia & Britian into enemies.
Nothing to get technical about. France egged Russia on. They started the war with the first act of war - mobilization. Germany was the last to mobilize. Even the Brits mobilized before Germany. Neither Russia nor the UK were traditional allies of Germany.
no, no, not “They might go to war … again.” it's "They will go to war...again." just might not be this month.
People have NO idea how much the average Indian is pissed at the US for backing or helping Pakistan. Pakistan IS the problem. They KNOWINGLY SHELTERED Bin Laden for years.
Yeah, we should have done them for that, say with a nuke dropped on him instead of a Seal Team. But the administration at the time was muslim, so what can you do?
Be honest....it's a lot easier to count how many years that they have NOT been at war....on one hand....with fingers left over.
One tidbit I remember from the 1965 fracas was that Chuck Yeager was one of the military advisors sent to Pakistan by the US, and one of his tasks was helping the Pakis rewire the hardpoints on Chinese-built MiG-19s to fire AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles. On the plus side, they didn't have to physically modify the hardpoints as the K-13 Vympel missiles that normally hung there were reverse-engineered Sidewinders. Seriously, younger generations will never know just how flipping WEIRD the Cold War was.
Yeager's Beechcraft was destroyed by the Indians. After he had been raving about the Paks being in New Delhi inside of a month, I found that rather amusing.
[makes a bowl of popcorn, sits down, waits for the hueing and the crying and the hemming and the hawing and the wailing and the gnashing of teeth and rending of clothes]
In 1975 our Frigate deployed to the Indian Ocean and the east coast of Africa. Karachi, Pakistan was a port call along the way. Sailors are always eager to go ashore. It was a 4 day visit. I maxed out after 5 hours. Dusty, dry, windy, dirty, too many aggressive blue bottle flies, thousands of years of compacted and composted trash on the streets. You kind of wanted to throw away your civilian shoes after walking around town. I didn't though because they were Cordovan Wingtips. Had them resoled in Singapore. Still have that pair of shoes. Here is the deal. Most of the Consulate staff came aboard our ship for R&R. They'd arrive mid-morning with family and kids and stay until 2200. They ate lunch and dinner on the messdeck. Raved about how good that Navy/American chow was. We did have decent chow, but it wasn't cordon bleu. They'd watch the 2000 movie on the messdeck. Play cards or board games with the sailors. Shoot the breeze. Those people were starved for a slice of America and our Frigate was heaven to them. They bought lots of candies, snacks, toiletries, and souvenirs from our small ship's store. They begged for toilet paper...that G.I. issue stuff we sailors hated. They were ever so grateful for our hospitality, the chow, the chance to socialize, the toilet paper. We were glad to have them as guests and enjoyed their company. What else were we going to do? Go ashore in Karachi? Colon, Panama (yes, that is the way they spell it) was better liberty. So was Papua-New Guinea. Concerning Pakistan? Been there, done that, not going back.
Hopefully THIS time we stay the hell out of it and let them nuke each other and be done with it!
India and Pakistan have been at war ever since God was a boy.
And I am so glad I read your Substack as I added a new word to my vocabulary: unassing. Thank you for expanding my vocabulary today!
Yep. Read Steve Coll’s “Ghost Wars” and “Directorate S”. They give the quintessential description of how ISI has played us, the Afghans, and nearly everyone else in the region for fools.
This is just more of the fine work from the same intelligence 'brains' who brought us WW1, who thought that they were all Lawrence of Arabia and could 'control' the middle east, and that all the damned 'color revolutions' of the past few decades were GREAT ideas....
To be fair, the Brit brains had very little to do with WWI- that was the Brains in Viennia, Berlin, and St. Petersburg who thought a quick & victorious war would be Just the Thing to Take Care of Those Blasted Serbs/Russians/Austrians.
It just happened that the Von Schlieffen plan involved a quick little Tour de France via Belgum, roping in two nations who really didn't want to play in that game.
However, the Brits did majorly bungle the post-colonial situation- first holding on too hard for too long, then dumping everyone into a Ready or Not independence. They were also super sloppy on drawing borders, which didn't and isn't helping.
The Brains in Vienna, Berlin, and St. Petersburg are of a set with the ones in England.
Their thought patterns, attitudes, and self proclaimed brilliance was not much more separate then, then they are now. They had been working on getting that way for the previous half century or more.
All those brilliant little planning geniuses in their ministries who knew just how everything everywhere should be done.
How many millions has that myth of human omnipotence killed in the past couple of centuries? It could be in diplomacy, economics, strategy- people are too much complicated for a small group to command and manage. Inevitably, things get way out of hand in ways unforeseen and uncontrollable.
The main causes of WW1 resided in Moscow and Paris.
If you want to get technical, it's more about Kaiser Bill's diplomatic brilliance- not only getting traditional enemies Russia, France, and Britian to become allies, but also in turning their traditional allies Russia & Britian into enemies.
Nothing to get technical about. France egged Russia on. They started the war with the first act of war - mobilization. Germany was the last to mobilize. Even the Brits mobilized before Germany. Neither Russia nor the UK were traditional allies of Germany.
I knew the general tenor of current events over there. I wasn't aware of the exact history. This explains a lot.
I know I'm not the only guy who remembers being very worried that India and Pakistan were going to go to nuclear war back in the 1970s...
Still a mite concerned about that one.
Ref item 5 - Definitely the biggest traffic jam in history...