Well I'm not quite old enough to have done any stomping around in Old Iran, but I did run into several of their sailors in my earliest days in the fleet. They were at FLEASWTRACENPAC learning how to operate the sonar systems for the Iranian versions of the Spruance class, the four vessels that the USN eventually bought and nicknamed "the Ayatollah class." Like Spruance but optimized for hot weather and AAW.
A few of the lower ranks were OK in a very culturally weird way, (Bathing seemed very optional, and men holding hands in uniform was "the thing") but their senior guys and the CWO in charge of the det, where another story.
When the revolution went down, they were all offered asylum by State. They turned it down, in a screaming revolutionary fervor, shouting "ISLAM, ISLAM!" So DOD and State let them go, they boarded a plane, and flew home. Where they were marched off the plane, lined up on the runway, and machinegunned to death for being "contaminated with western ideals."
Not surprised in the least, although the Persians I knew I the 1970s who weren't in positions of prestige or power were gentle, intelligent, lovely people.
Military folks tended to get the position because it was prestige, not because they knew what the hell they were doing.
I’ve been following things with interest, and some background level of knowledge. Part of me wishes that NCA wouldn’t have made those protective comments, as it sounds very much like we’re starting to bump up against the red line he drew. I don’t really see any sort of kinetic option working well for us.
The other thing is that I hope very much that we keep our (or at least the CIA’s) noses out of the regime-change aspect of this. We’ve had a long and not very fruitful history of meddling in that neck of the woods. In the end, we had nothing to show for it other than a bunch of torqued-off locals. Once Iran ceases being “The Islamic Republic of” and they’ve begun a stable transition, I’m all for giving what aid makes sense. But if there’s even a public perception that our thumbs are on the scale, that whole situation will go pear-shaped for another 50 years.
I distinctly recall, in the early 1980's, as a college student, a Teaching Assistant at SUNY Buffalo. He was assisting me with Physics stuff (math was not my strongest subject); we got to talking. It was just before a vacation break. Ian is quite right, he was intellegent, a good listener and eager to help me.
He mentioned "I can never go home." I asked why. His answer: "I'm Iranian." Further explanation not needed.
Andrew Young, Carter's U.N. Ambassador, said in February 1979, that Khomeini "would eventually be hailed as a saint." Brzezinski famously said in 1979, "Islamic revivalist movements are not sweeping the Middle East and are not likely to be the wave of the future."
Oh no, they weren't well meaning at all. I know, for a fact, that Carter HATED the Shah of Iran. I honestly believe that the Shah had been boinking Jimmie's mom, and that's why he hated him.
My sister worked for the company that did all of the radar installations over there. They were very familiar with the Shah and the government. They were the ones that told everyone that if Carter won, he would push the Shah out of power. They did not mince words.
I worked for Grumman aerospace (a few years later) and a lot of shit happened to our folks living there which I got to hear about in great detail when I worked there.
Then of course I went to an engineering school and there were a LOT of Iranians there. About ten percent of the school.
Living in the dorms was not exactly safe. And not everyone was on the same side. It was quite 'contentious'. But at least the pro-aytollah folks did go home (and were probably all executed when they got there).
I think I can agree now, after decades of reflection, that many of the Carter coterie were well-meaning morons, but that's where you'd expect to also find sinister actors seriously up to no good. Like flies on poop. Joe attracted lots more flies than Jimmy. Jimmy probably died a happy man knowing that.
Hopefully, this will result in the overthrow of the mullahs and their funding for Islamist terrorism.
Anything else would be gravy - nice to have if something good comes out of it and Iran becomes a better place for its people as well, but to be brutally honest even a run of the mill despotic kleptocracy that *doesn’t* support terror beyond its own borders would be a major step up for the rest of the world.
I truly hope something good emerges, but even “noticeably less bad and not exporting unrest” would be a significant improvement for their neighbors.
I was in my first hitch in the Air Force when the Shah fell, and at the end of it when the Iranian militants overran the embassy in Teheran - a couple of the older NCOs in my first duty station had done tours in Iran. When I was still in basic training, in 1977, they were training Iranian and Saudi tech school students at Lackland AFB, and I was briefly romanced by one of the Iranian lads. He was rather sweet and courtly; had the most amazing line in flowery compliments, and had a picture of the Shah and his Empress in his wallet but I did not take him seriously at all. I hope that he was able to escape all the troubles in Iran that came later - it would have been such a bad place for a sweet, gentle poet-type who was so proud of being a cultured Persian.
But all that came after - I personally lay so much of that bungling at Jimmy Carter's feet. It was speculated years later that Jimmy Carter angled to destabilize the Shah at the bidding of the Saudis, since so much of that animus seemed to be personal, and originating from him - that suddenly, the Shah went from being a reliable ally in the middle east to the Worst Tyrant Evah! when Carter took office. If it is true that Carter was doing the bidding of the Saudis in destabilizing Iran - all those decades of war involving Iran, and the suppression of the Persian people are his doing. Jimmy Carter really might be one of History's Greatest Monsters.
I kinda want them to fall for no other reason for the hassle that they caused the United States since the 1979 revolution, from the Tanker wars, to sheltering the Iraqi's during Gulf 1 and 2 and of course providing IED support to the local troublemakers in Iraq that cost a lot of Americans lives and Limbs. and the general instability they brought to the region. They are being kinda cheep $7, considering all the cash Obungler and Biden slid their way but I guess funding Hamas and Hasbullah has gotten quite expensive I suppose.
I hope the grandkids learned from the lessons of their parents and not allow another theocracy, but we will see.
This was discussed in the zeitgeist segment of the most recent Author Update (https://www.youtube.com/live/VMUG532g5IA starting at about the 34 minute mark). One of the co hosts of that stream is a former marine who worked HumInt in the area. The picture of the young lady was mentioned along with one of the reasons that most people don't get why it's so revolutionary (you can see her hair). They brought it back into how you can use this sort of thing in your writing. Winged Hussars was even mentioned.
I saw a comment earlier regarding the brave, but dumb pic: Apparently she's already in Canada, having left Iran 6 months ago. No verification, and still "brave", but not as "BRAVE".
It may very well be dumb, but I love this image. It is glorious. I really hope she is somewhere safe. She may very well become a martyr for the cause, but my eternally optimistic heart really hopes for the best here.
My impression is the support will be material only post-overthrow. Sorry brave young people but nothing the US does before that can be anything but counterproductive. For change to mean anything - or have a hope of being meaningful - for the Iranian people & their future, they must do it and (especially) be seen to have done it themselves. Regime & anti-regime know it, we know it, and therefore it ain't happening. SecState Rubio tweeted 'support' but no promises.
I've been watching TousiTV, a young ex-pat Irani whose been covering the goings-on. After 14 days in the streets, it looks like the regime is cooked. Here's hoping...
Well I'm not quite old enough to have done any stomping around in Old Iran, but I did run into several of their sailors in my earliest days in the fleet. They were at FLEASWTRACENPAC learning how to operate the sonar systems for the Iranian versions of the Spruance class, the four vessels that the USN eventually bought and nicknamed "the Ayatollah class." Like Spruance but optimized for hot weather and AAW.
A few of the lower ranks were OK in a very culturally weird way, (Bathing seemed very optional, and men holding hands in uniform was "the thing") but their senior guys and the CWO in charge of the det, where another story.
When the revolution went down, they were all offered asylum by State. They turned it down, in a screaming revolutionary fervor, shouting "ISLAM, ISLAM!" So DOD and State let them go, they boarded a plane, and flew home. Where they were marched off the plane, lined up on the runway, and machinegunned to death for being "contaminated with western ideals."
So I'm not as much of a fan of the average Hasib.
Not surprised in the least, although the Persians I knew I the 1970s who weren't in positions of prestige or power were gentle, intelligent, lovely people.
Military folks tended to get the position because it was prestige, not because they knew what the hell they were doing.
I’ve been following things with interest, and some background level of knowledge. Part of me wishes that NCA wouldn’t have made those protective comments, as it sounds very much like we’re starting to bump up against the red line he drew. I don’t really see any sort of kinetic option working well for us.
The other thing is that I hope very much that we keep our (or at least the CIA’s) noses out of the regime-change aspect of this. We’ve had a long and not very fruitful history of meddling in that neck of the woods. In the end, we had nothing to show for it other than a bunch of torqued-off locals. Once Iran ceases being “The Islamic Republic of” and they’ve begun a stable transition, I’m all for giving what aid makes sense. But if there’s even a public perception that our thumbs are on the scale, that whole situation will go pear-shaped for another 50 years.
Once the mullahs are out, I think we should drop the sanctions and resume trade with Iran. But nothing else for a generation or so.
I distinctly recall, in the early 1980's, as a college student, a Teaching Assistant at SUNY Buffalo. He was assisting me with Physics stuff (math was not my strongest subject); we got to talking. It was just before a vacation break. Ian is quite right, he was intellegent, a good listener and eager to help me.
He mentioned "I can never go home." I asked why. His answer: "I'm Iranian." Further explanation not needed.
I remember this from 1979:
Andrew Young, Carter's U.N. Ambassador, said in February 1979, that Khomeini "would eventually be hailed as a saint." Brzezinski famously said in 1979, "Islamic revivalist movements are not sweeping the Middle East and are not likely to be the wave of the future."
- https://israeled.org/president-jimmy-carter-the-us-and-iran-the-shahs-down-fall-the-hostage-crisis-and-the-rise-of-ayatollah-khomeyni/
Carter's appointees -- much like Carter himself -- were well-meaning morons.
Oh no, they weren't well meaning at all. I know, for a fact, that Carter HATED the Shah of Iran. I honestly believe that the Shah had been boinking Jimmie's mom, and that's why he hated him.
Carter was a real piece of work.
Yeah, a friends father blamed Carter for everything that happened over there, but he'd spent years in Iran.
My sister worked for the company that did all of the radar installations over there. They were very familiar with the Shah and the government. They were the ones that told everyone that if Carter won, he would push the Shah out of power. They did not mince words.
I worked for Grumman aerospace (a few years later) and a lot of shit happened to our folks living there which I got to hear about in great detail when I worked there.
Then of course I went to an engineering school and there were a LOT of Iranians there. About ten percent of the school.
Living in the dorms was not exactly safe. And not everyone was on the same side. It was quite 'contentious'. But at least the pro-aytollah folks did go home (and were probably all executed when they got there).
I think I can agree now, after decades of reflection, that many of the Carter coterie were well-meaning morons, but that's where you'd expect to also find sinister actors seriously up to no good. Like flies on poop. Joe attracted lots more flies than Jimmy. Jimmy probably died a happy man knowing that.
Are you so sure that they were “well-meaning”?
And don’t forget Rhodesia. Andrew Young, may his soul rot in hell, made it a personal mission to shut down Rhodesia.
That woman is internet famous already and Larry shared a 80s style image of this on faceborg that is on point.
Hopefully, this will result in the overthrow of the mullahs and their funding for Islamist terrorism.
Anything else would be gravy - nice to have if something good comes out of it and Iran becomes a better place for its people as well, but to be brutally honest even a run of the mill despotic kleptocracy that *doesn’t* support terror beyond its own borders would be a major step up for the rest of the world.
I truly hope something good emerges, but even “noticeably less bad and not exporting unrest” would be a significant improvement for their neighbors.
I was in my first hitch in the Air Force when the Shah fell, and at the end of it when the Iranian militants overran the embassy in Teheran - a couple of the older NCOs in my first duty station had done tours in Iran. When I was still in basic training, in 1977, they were training Iranian and Saudi tech school students at Lackland AFB, and I was briefly romanced by one of the Iranian lads. He was rather sweet and courtly; had the most amazing line in flowery compliments, and had a picture of the Shah and his Empress in his wallet but I did not take him seriously at all. I hope that he was able to escape all the troubles in Iran that came later - it would have been such a bad place for a sweet, gentle poet-type who was so proud of being a cultured Persian.
But all that came after - I personally lay so much of that bungling at Jimmy Carter's feet. It was speculated years later that Jimmy Carter angled to destabilize the Shah at the bidding of the Saudis, since so much of that animus seemed to be personal, and originating from him - that suddenly, the Shah went from being a reliable ally in the middle east to the Worst Tyrant Evah! when Carter took office. If it is true that Carter was doing the bidding of the Saudis in destabilizing Iran - all those decades of war involving Iran, and the suppression of the Persian people are his doing. Jimmy Carter really might be one of History's Greatest Monsters.
I blame so much on what has happened in the Middle East on Carter and wish the Iranian people are able to get rid of the mad mullahs
I saw someone of Twit-X describe it as 'The Shah Shank Redemption'
Hey Ian,
I kinda want them to fall for no other reason for the hassle that they caused the United States since the 1979 revolution, from the Tanker wars, to sheltering the Iraqi's during Gulf 1 and 2 and of course providing IED support to the local troublemakers in Iraq that cost a lot of Americans lives and Limbs. and the general instability they brought to the region. They are being kinda cheep $7, considering all the cash Obungler and Biden slid their way but I guess funding Hamas and Hasbullah has gotten quite expensive I suppose.
I hope the grandkids learned from the lessons of their parents and not allow another theocracy, but we will see.
I don't know if she started it, but it's become a trend.
https://vxtwitter.com/EYakoby/status/2009755532735697236
This was discussed in the zeitgeist segment of the most recent Author Update (https://www.youtube.com/live/VMUG532g5IA starting at about the 34 minute mark). One of the co hosts of that stream is a former marine who worked HumInt in the area. The picture of the young lady was mentioned along with one of the reasons that most people don't get why it's so revolutionary (you can see her hair). They brought it back into how you can use this sort of thing in your writing. Winged Hussars was even mentioned.
I saw a comment earlier regarding the brave, but dumb pic: Apparently she's already in Canada, having left Iran 6 months ago. No verification, and still "brave", but not as "BRAVE".
It may very well be dumb, but I love this image. It is glorious. I really hope she is somewhere safe. She may very well become a martyr for the cause, but my eternally optimistic heart really hopes for the best here.
My impression is the support will be material only post-overthrow. Sorry brave young people but nothing the US does before that can be anything but counterproductive. For change to mean anything - or have a hope of being meaningful - for the Iranian people & their future, they must do it and (especially) be seen to have done it themselves. Regime & anti-regime know it, we know it, and therefore it ain't happening. SecState Rubio tweeted 'support' but no promises.
I've been watching TousiTV, a young ex-pat Irani whose been covering the goings-on. After 14 days in the streets, it looks like the regime is cooked. Here's hoping...